We were initially talking about how the interview process for a individual (let’s call him Person-A) was tough in the US market. Its apparently quite different and difficult. I had praised the way Person-A handled it however. He mentioned he did a ton of research on the market, spoken with other developers at the company and really seems to know what he is worth and what offer would be deemed acceptable.
It kind of escalated after somebody suggested that they would love to see open salaries and that it would be really interesting. I would agree, but I wonder if something similar to the BBC whereby they basically compared the top paid male presenters vs top paid female presenters. But they failed to include any other information such as years of experience, number of viewers, how much value and money they bring to the company or anything related to how successful the presenters were.
Here was my actual response:
I would say that the problem with open salaries is that it will never paint the full picture. Some people may have jumped from one company to the next, whereas others are perfectly comfortable staying at the same company for up to 5+ years. Some people are perfectly happy to work unsociable hours such as weekends etc whereas the other requires more fixed times.
For example, imagine two developers both with 5 years experience. ‘Developer A’ stayed at their company for 5 years, the other (Developer B) moved from job to job up to at least 3 times. It is more likely ‘Developer B’ has the higher salary despite having the same number of year experience than ‘Developer A’
The reality is that the best way to boost your salary is to move from company to company. Pay rises at the same company will rarely exceed more than 3% even with negotiation. Whereas when moving to a new company its possible to grow your salary up to 30% (well at least that’s what I did, although I was probably in the right place at the right time).
And when they responded with how if ‘Developer A’ were a women and more senior than ‘Developer B’; a man, then ‘Developer B’ will make more money… Here was my response:
Hmm, I’m not informed about any that to comment. All I’m sure of is that an individual’s salary is usually dictated through negotiation. Which is why I commend Person-A’s methods. He did the research and due diligence has kept him knowledgeable on when he was receiving low-ball offers and stood his ground. I bet if he wanted to, he could’ve accepted those offers and be done with it (with a low salary).
It kind of went back and fourth a little, but ultimately, I think what I was saying struck a nerve with some of those in the conversation. I guess they feel like its not fair that you would have to negotiate your salary and that you should just be paid what you’re worth. I actually agree, but the question and the challenge is how do you demonstrate to the employer how much you’re worth? Surely by making a counter offer and then justifying why this offer would be deemed fair to you, which is basically negotiating right?
Its a tough conversation to have because these can be quite sensitive to those involved and its fairly easy to offend someone with topics like these. I think where it went wrong was because some people in the discussion kept put the example individuals into a group identity i.e. A woman or colour or a ethnic minority. Basically anyone not a cisgender white man.
The whole discussion started to get a little ridiculous, one person started to get a little annoyed when I said that the solution to getting a good salary is to improve your negotiation skills, but I feel like she misunderstood and sarcastically said something along the lines of ‘Yeah sure! we women need to get better at what men are good at’… I don’t remember specifically mentioning women at all, and when I tried to explain that by saying ‘And guys, I didn’t say anything about women not being able to do this’, one person accused me of not including her and one other person (both were women) because I used the word ‘guys’, which by the way, I used as a gender-neutral term.
I then proceeded to give an example of my original point in order to stay on topic:
I can give you an example, (although this is anecdotal). My sister (who is an architect) once applied for a position (which also outlines the salary range). She passed the interview and when they made an offer, she gave an counter offer of 10k more. She then proceeded to explain in detail why she believes she is worth that much and what value she brings to the company. The company hired her
After this I was accused of ‘mansplaining’. At this point, I felt the conversation was no longer constructive and that I was never going to learn anything new from that point on. I think in some ways its a real shame it ended up this way. Conversations like these are important and I believe will help a lot of people both men and women who are actually less than what they’re worth.
There are many factors to consider when receiving an offer at a particular company. What is the company’s situation? Are they desperate to fill the position due to deadlines and requirements? Are they desperate to fill a position that will be available as an existing employee is moving on from the company ? Do they have the budget to match even your minimum offer or exceed it by a significantly higher amount?
Crazily enough, the company can be considering similar factors which considering a candidate. Is the candidate desperate to fill the role? Is the candidate unemployed or going to be soon? What is their minimum range and will they negotiate? What actual experience do they have? Are they the best candidate we have based on the shortlist of candidates we’ve also interviewed? etc
Conclusion
Instead of pointing fingers and blaming others for things you have no control over, instead focus on what you do have control over. Do your research, know how much the market rate is and what your position is in regards to how much salary you can realistically achieve. Once you have a minimum range, then make sure you don’t accept any less, and be prepared to justify why. You can’t just say that you want 10k more and expect them to simply agree based on your character. You can say that you want 10k more because of the experience and value you can bring to the company.
You can dislike the game but ultimately the rules are set, are you going to complain or take the steps necessary to get better at the game and achieve the results you want?